Curse

Abedeus · Jan 05, 2009, 07:34 PM // 19:34

You can pre-cast Enraged Lunge too. Just use long-recharging BM skills.

And you can use some attack skills between Lunges.

Maybe you just like SMALL NUMBERS.

Picuso · Jan 05, 2009, 07:37 PM // 19:37

You can pre-cast EL too, so your pet's first attack will be a "small spike".

Well, you could have better results with SaO, I can't say "no", but one thing is saying "I liked SaO before" and other is saying "SaO sux, and it was da b3st 3lite evah!".

moko · Jan 05, 2009, 07:43 PM // 19:43

...you run Enraged so you only have to run one BM attack skill.

and you clearly didn't get the precast thing. should think about it again, really.

and wow, "small" numbers are clearly bad eh? warriors must be really terrible with their small auto attacks.

it seems pretty obvious to me that you're just jumping on the "community train" as always, planning to troll, but please, try harder next time.

quite sad to see that everyone is stubborn as always, not accepting facts they've never tried before. go theorycrafting more..

by the way, i'm not referring to you Picuso, it's actually cool to see that you're speaking out of experience unlike most here.

fact is, old Strike as One > new one.

Abedeus · Jan 05, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by moko

...you run Enraged so you only have to run one BM attack skill.

and you clearly didn't get the precast thing. should think about it again, really.

and wow, "small" numbers are clearly bad eh? warriors must be really terrible with their small auto attacks.

it seems pretty obvious to me that you're just jumping on the "community train" as always, planning to troll, but please, try harder next time.

quite sad to see that everyone is stubborn as always, not accepting facts they've never tried before. go theorycrafting more..

by the way, i'm not referring to you Picuso, it's actually cool to see that you're speaking out of experience unlike most here.

fact is, old Strike as One > new one.

Right now you are the one trolling, calling people stubborn and insulting me.

You still should have an Interrupt in PvE. Disrupting Lunge has a 20 second recharge, but it's good. Like D-Shot, you must know how to use it (and remember that pets suck, so don't try interrupting anything under 1 second). And it powers EL.

You can precast EL. It lasts those 6-8 seconds, so with good timing you get 160 damage in 6-8 seconds. Precast, let pet attack, then activate it on recharge and you get another damage pack.

Small numbers - 5x10 is 50. It's very small. You get 80x5 with EL. And if you want damage only for you, Conjure or Brutal Weapon gives unlimited amount of hits during the duration of skill.

I did try SoO. But only because I had the skill for PvP unlocked, didn't bother wasting 1k for it in PvE and then capping it from the boss. You don't need much theorycrafting, just some experience, to know that wasting your elite skill for FIFTY damage is stupid. Fifty. In PvE, that's nothing.

You might as well get a Dragon Slash on your Ranger, For Great Justice and get almost a warrior-like DPS of 50-60 if you use Drunken Master instead of Flail.

In some circumstances it was better than the new one, but in PvP it's better now. Added some element of surprise. I mean, teleporting your pet to a foe with a condition ready and Disrupting Lunge after another second is pretty good in RA.

Picuso · Jan 05, 2009, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by moko

...you run Enraged so you only have to run one BM attack skill.

Well, if you can use only one BM Attack skill, maybe it would be better just to leave pet at home, and using those 3/4 skill slots in other skills

P.S.: I've just taken some SS about EL, vs 60 AL dummy and vs 100 AL dummy, if they are needed

moko · Jan 05, 2009, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Right now you are the one trolling, calling people stubborn and insulting me.

You still should have an Interrupt in PvE. Disrupting Lunge has a 20 second recharge, but it's good. Like D-Shot, you must know how to use it (and remember that pets suck, so don't try interrupting anything under 1 second). And it powers EL.

You can precast EL. It lasts those 6-8 seconds, so with good timing you get 160 damage in 6-8 seconds. Precast, let pet attack, then activate it on recharge and you get another damage pack.

Small numbers - 5x10 is 50. It's very small. You get 80x5 with EL. And if you want damage only for you, Conjure or Brutal Weapon gives unlimited amount of hits during the duration of skill.

I did try SoO. But only because I had the skill for PvP unlocked, didn't bother wasting 1k for it in PvE and then capping it from the boss. You don't need much theorycrafting, just some experience, to know that wasting your elite skill for FIFTY damage is stupid. Fifty. In PvE, that's nothing.

You might as well get a Dragon Slash on your Ranger, For Great Justice and get almost a warrior-like DPS of 50-60 if you use Drunken Master instead of Flail.

In some circumstances it was better than the new one, but in PvP it's better now. Added some element of surprise. I mean, teleporting your pet to a foe with a condition ready and Disrupting Lunge after another second is pretty good in RA.

Disrupting Lunge is absolutely unreliable. it was still good when you can spam it along with Enraged and get luck interrupts every now and then, but now it's just bad imo. going with Dshot will be a better choice.

if you combine Strike as One, with 14BM along with, let's say [Brutal Strike] you won't actually get small numbers. that 5times, that's some "alright" damage. adding your own damage, even if it's just wanding is another easy 50 damage. i'd really just take [Barbed Spear] for some cheap bleeding. so the numbers in fact aren't that low anymore.

and it's not 50, it's 100. so Enraged is what, 80 additional, and that's not even the case ALL the time.

in PvP it does seem (not only seem, it IS way inferior to Enraged) worse.

the new Strike as One is simply terrible .. there are absolutely no good aspects in it, it's just as terrible for PvP as the old one, except the old one was better in PvE.

Quote:

Well, if you can use only one BM Attack skill, maybe it would be better just to leave pet at home, and using those 3/4 skill slots in other skills

Hybrid Rangers with EL & actual attack skills from /Paragon is far more effective than different pet attacks. you want to spam Enraged as much as possible, and other pet attacks just stop it. the pet is in many cases so slow at reaching a kiting target & actually attacking, that after 5 seconds the EL is already recharged.

compare it with Burning Arrow Turrets - why would you need that many other attack skills when BA is enough?

and there's no screens needed, everyone is aware of EL's power, i never said EL was bad just cause i'm defending the old Strike as One.

but really, you guys need to look at the whole bar instead of just the elite possibilites.

Abedeus · Jan 05, 2009, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

compare it with Burning Arrow Turrets - why would you need that many other attack skills when BA is enough?

5 second recharge and more damage with more attacks.

Quote:

but really, you guys need to look at the whole bar instead of just the elite possibilites.

Then show a viable build with old SoO.

Why do you want to REALLY waste your elite if you can get a Conjure of some kind? Why? Really, why? You get a Conjure, you get infinite amount of damage during the duration of the skill. And you can take a better Elite Skill.

R/P's have a better pet and utility skills like [Ferocious Strike] and [Heal as One]. Neither EL or SoO were good on them, one because of lack of BM skills, the second because... There are better elites.

Sure, it's 100 damage, not 50, my bad. But your pet must attack and hit 5 times during 5 seconds for optimum damage. And since pets attack slower, especially if you give them an attack skill, you will rarely hit more than 2-3 times, 4 with a lot of luck or a speed boost.

moko · Jan 05, 2009, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

5 second recharge and more damage with more attacks.

nah, you just need charm animal, comfort and tiger's fury.

Quote:

Why do you want to REALLY waste your elite if you can get a Conjure of some kind? Why? Really, why? You get a Conjure, you get infinite amount of damage during the duration of the skill. And you can take a better Elite Skill.

conjure won't work on the pet, will it. :P i'm not a real fan of BM myself, i've just tried the builds, and the OP mainly loved this. just if you wanted a BM .. you had 2 choices, which seemed both very good to me in diff situations.

Quote:

R/P's have a better pet and utility skills like [Ferocious Strike] and [Heal as One]. Neither EL or SoO were good on them, one because of lack of BM skills, the second because... There are better elites.

see the very thing of this post. they DO have enough BM skills, Enraged can be very powerful on R/P, and so was the old Strike as One. i've seen it used succesfully before, really. although it was in that lame TA hexway, it still boosted their damage WAY more than the Ferocious.

and i personally HATE Ferocious, so..:P

i wouldn't use Heal as One in PvE, nor would i use it anywhere but Hero Battles, or RA if i'm so overly defensive person ..

Quote:

Sure, it's 100 damage, not 50, my bad. But your pet must attack and hit 5 times during 5 seconds for optimum damage. And since pets attack slower, especially if you give them an attack skill, you will rarely hit more than 2-3 times, 4 with a lot of luck or a speed boost.

that's exactly the point why Strike as One is imo pretty terrible in PvP. in PvE, i found my pet usually attacked often enough, maybe i've just been extremely lucky, idk.

mcjohna12 · Jan 05, 2009, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Picuso

[Strike As [email protected]] = +8x5=+40 damage every 10 seconds.
[Enraged [email protected]] = +15x4 = +60 damage every 5 seconds (using Tiger's Fury, Encant Animal and Comfort Animal).

60/5 > 40/10.

Even using a Pure Beastmaster build, focusing damage on the pet (My Magrid uses a build like that), [Enraged Lunge] wins, hands down. You use some Shouts to make your pet even stronger, and just spam EL on recharge.

Pet doing 120 damage is FTW.

If they really "destroyed" your build, change it. It's not as hard.

P.S.:1vs1 is srs bsnss

You fail math or what?
First off you failed to calculate the damage your character does, as SaO also added damage to him/her. And secondly as I've stated a million times, SaO unlike EL is a shout. Meaning you can use a Pet attack in conjunction with it, doing FAR more damage than EL.

So the real calculation is SOMEWHAT like this:

[Strike As [email protected]] = +8x5=+40 damage every 7 seconds.(Due to Feral Agression) + 8x5=+40 damage every 9 seconds (When your character is using a wand) + (You get to use a pet attack) +23 Damage(Using Brutal Strike)
[Enraged [email protected]] = +15x4 = +60 damage every 5 seconds (using Tiger's Fury, Encant Animal and Comfort Animal).

Now in the end that brings us to:
[Strike As [email protected]] = 5.7+4.4+(*roughly)13.4 to 16.2
[Enraged [email protected]] = 12

*I say roughly because i divided the Pet attacks damage with the pets attack speed.

Therefore While Strike as One does a whopping +23.5 to +26.3 PER SECOND, Enraged Lunge only deals +12 Damage PER SECOND.

No matter how you add it SaO ALWAYS comes on top.

pingu666 · Jan 06, 2009, 05:19 AM // 05:19

i remmber making some oddball pet + wand build

i researched the dps of various weapons and ended up with a wintergreen? wand with a 15^50 mod and customised

i presumably had a bar full of pet and utility..

pretty amusing to play tho, even if its not *that* effective

Abedeus · Jan 06, 2009, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

nah, you just need charm animal, comfort and tiger's fury.

We are talking about BA here or pets? If pets, then for EL there are better skills. At it counts only recharging ones.

Quote:

conjure won't work on the pet, will it. :P i'm not a real fan of BM myself, i've just tried the builds, and the OP mainly loved this. just if you wanted a BM .. you had 2 choices, which seemed both very good to me in diff situations.

Why would you want your pet to deal damage at the first time? You might just bring a fire wand, Conjure Flame and you can wand.

Quote:

First off you failed to calculate the damage your character does, as SaO also added damage to him/her. And secondly as I've stated a million times, SaO unlike EL is a shout. Meaning you can use a Pet attack in conjunction with it, doing FAR more damage than EL.

If you add 14 to BM, your character won't have much damage. I'd be surprised if you manage to get decent level of Expertise and Marksmanship without gimping yourself.

Quote:

Therefore While Strike as One does a whopping +23.5 to +26.3 PER SECOND, Enraged Lunge only deals +12 Damage PER SECOND.

Lies. You don't have enough energy to keep up doing that. Feral is 15 energy, Strike as One is 5 energy, Brutal is another 10 energy. And that 15 is every 5 seconds.

You don't have other skills to help your team, you don't have self-heal, you can't even get skills to help your pet survive.

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/any_Tank_Master

As you can see, it's extremely hard to fit in an effective BM build. And I have yet to see a good SoO build.

Quote:

No matter how you add it SaO ALWAYS comes on top.

I think there is a term in psychology. When person tries to prove something, they will always show the "worse" thing in such way it'll prove they're right.

Also, EL works only on RECHARGING skills. Comfort Animal is almost impossible to catch on recharge, Charm Animal never, Tiger's Fury is a waste.

kvndoom · Jan 06, 2009, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcjohna12

1-It costs 25 mana, plus it takes up an Elite, yeah it sucks.

That's the end of discussion right there. He can't spare the points into Expertise because then he can't get 3 regen on [Mending]. Please stop feeding the troll.

Amy Awien · Jan 06, 2009, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

... I'm talking about factoring in attack speed of a ranger with any weapon without IAS, and attack speed of a pet without IAS.

You want to run a damage build without IAS? BM has several very usefull ones, including the almost overpowered NRA. Not to mention you've access to several multiple arrow skills. But even if you don't use IAS, regular attacks can come close to 5 in 10-12 seconds.

Quote:

Unless you're facing something even more static and stupid than the target dummies in GToB,

The very same difficulty hurts EL's effectiveness. Your comparison fails, factor in the pros and cons of both skills next time.

Quote:

...And your "3 other recharging BM skills" is bunk, because unless you're using heal as one, you are going to have charm animalcomfort animal on your bar anyway, which puts you 66% there.

Have you ever read the skill's description, let alone used the skill? Probably not, EL needs recharging BM skills, not just have them on the bar, and normally you never have charm recharging and comfort rarely. Charm and Comfort are useless as fuel for EL.

Quote:

You're dreaming if you think the old skill's DPS or spike ability was even close to Enraged's.

Learn to read, I never said it could match EL in damage. I said that (a) your math failed and (b) SaO has an advantage over EL because EL needs the 3 recharging bm skills. SaO brought damage and left more of your skill bar available for other skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcjohna12

... EL ... needs to to waste valuable mana in order to use its full potential.

It depends on what skills you use to fuel EL, I've used an EL build for some time and never even came close to energy problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Picuso

Strike As [email protected] = +8x5=+40 damage every 10 seconds.

I don't understand why people can't read skill descriptions, you and your pet, each 5 attacks at +10 damage adds to 100, not 40.

Quote:

Enraged [email protected] = +15x4 = +60 damage every 5 seconds (using Tiger's Fury, Encant Animal and Comfort Animal).

No, there's only a 5 second recharge from TF, so the trick only works on about half of your EL's.

Quote:

Even using a Pure Beastmaster build, ...

The former Strike as One was oriented to non-pure, or hybrid builds, referencing pure BM builds is pointless. EL did it's real damage when you brought the 3 fuel skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Small numbers - 5x10 is 50. It's very small. You get 80x5 with EL.

Where do you get 80x5 on EL? Please don't smoke weird stuff before posting. Oh, and for you too, learn to read skill descriptions before you try to create builds, SaO used to add damage to your and your pets attacks.

Quote of the day:

"When person tries to prove something, they will always show the "worse" thing in such way it'll prove they're right."

Seems there was a lot of that going on in this thread.

distilledwill · Jan 06, 2009, 10:19 AM // 10:19

[rampage as one][ferocious strike][heal as one][enraged lunge] > old AND new [strike as one]

nuff said.

Theres even a case for [lacerate] being better.

moko · Jan 06, 2009, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Also, EL works only on RECHARGING skills. Comfort Animal is almost impossible to catch on recharge, Charm Animal never, Tiger's Fury is a waste.

this basically sums up how little you understand.

you use Tiger's Fury and Charm & Comfort will recharge.

MAGIC!

i'm done, i just had to point this out for the lulz

PS, no, in the hybrid r/p there are no energy problems. for PvP, it's definately enough due to various factors:> recharge of tiger's fury aint a problem either.

xDusT II · Jan 06, 2009, 12:20 PM // 12:20

3 pages of super srs beast mastery balance talk.

agree with moko. The current SaO (Strike As One =/= SoO) is pretty bad in PvP and PvE whereas at least the old one could keep some PvE'ers happy with bigger yellow numbers. Although I honestly couldn't care less as to what happened with it anyway.

mcjohna12 · Jan 06, 2009, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcjohna12

You fail math or what?
First off you failed to calculate the damage your character does, as SaO also added damage to him/her. And secondly as I've stated a million times, SaO unlike EL is a shout. Meaning you can use a Pet attack in conjunction with it, doing FAR more damage than EL.

So the real calculation is SOMEWHAT like this:

= +8x5=+40 damage every 7 seconds.(Due to Feral Agression) + 8x5=+40 damage every 9 seconds (When your character is [Strike As [email protected]] using a wand) + (You get to use a pet attack) +23 Damage(Using Brutal Strike)
[Enraged [email protected]] = +15x4 = +60 damage every 5 seconds (using Tiger's Fury, Encant Animal and Comfort Animal).

Now in the end that brings us to:
[Strike As [email protected]] = 5.7+4.4+(*roughly)13.4 to 16.2
[Enraged [email protected]] = 12

*I say roughly because i divided the Pet attacks damage with the pets attack speed.

Therefore While Strike as One does a whopping +23.5 to +26.3 PER SECOND, Enraged Lunge only deals +12 Damage PER SECOND.

No matter how you add it SaO ALWAYS comes on top.

Ok I messed up abit on the calculations becuse i was rushing hardcore.
The real caluction is this:
[Strike As [email protected]] = 5.7+4.4+(*roughly)3.8 to 4.6
[Enraged [email protected]] = 12

Meaning Strike As One deals 13.9 to 14.7 damage per second, while Enraged Lunge only deals 12 damage per second.
JUST THIS shows that Strike as One has a huge advantage, but in the end even this calculation isn't showing the real thing. As this calculation is based off of two BM's, one using nothing but EL every 5 seconds, and one using Brutal Strike every 5 seconds. And so while a BM cannot spam EL every 1.4 seconds UNLIKE the SaO with BS/SS/FL/MA/PP, it shows the old SaO is the clear winner.

"Lies. You don't have enough energy to keep up doing that. Feral is 15 energy, Strike as One is 5 energy, Brutal is another 10 energy. And that 15 is every 5 seconds."

You can manage energy in serveral ways. First off I've stated I'd be using a wand, along with a focus giving me much more energy. SS also allows for energy management. Just the focus is enough really, but you can get more with runes and insriptions (which isn't the best idea, but w/e)

"You don't have other skills to help your team, you don't have self-heal, you can't even get skills to help your pet survive."

Companionship?

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/any_Tank_Master

"As you can see, it's extremely hard to fit in an effective BM build. And I have yet to see a good SoO build."

Um not really....

[Strike As [email protected]] [Feral [email protected]] [Feral [email protected]] [Brutal [email protected]] [Scavenger [email protected]] [Strike As [email protected]] [[email protected]] [Charm [email protected]]

The last SaO will be changed to whatever you see fit for the situation. But this has proven to be a very effective build (although I don't really follow this build 100% because I found a MUCH more SECRET

build

).
In all seriousness, you can also change one of the listed pet attacks to something else as well, such as a sugguested Rez.
Doing this will lessen your damage output but will still exceed MOST (ones focused on pure attack rather than helping the team and such) EL builds.

Abedeus · Jan 06, 2009, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

(ones focused on pure attack rather than helping the team and such)

Unless you are terribad, I think this is sarcasm.

If you want to deal damage, deal it AoE. Single-target damage is ftl in PvE except for Discordway, because it deals 100 damage every 2 seconds per character.

14.7 damage per second is ~7-8 pips of degen. Burning Arrow ranger with Apply Poison outdamages this.

Quote:

(although I don't really follow this build 100% because I found a MUCH more SECRET build ).

Every secret build sucks. If it was good, it wouldn't be secret, as hundreds of people would be looking it up on PvX to rip it off.

People claiming to have "secret, but really good and original build" always have some kind of crap they put in random order and it works on test dummies.

Your pet has no res. It dies, you are useless until you zone again.
You have no res. If someone dies, you can't res him in 4-5 seconds. Or at all.

Scavenger Strike is bad. No interrupts, too. Companionship is 2 second cast, 10 second recharge. You either heal your pet, but sometimes by the time you finish cast he dies, or you heal yourself... But if your pet has more health, it might be too late for you.

I know few builds that allow more survivability, more damage and/or more team utility than your build.

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/...d_Arrow_Ranger
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/W_Stance_Tank
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/any_Barrage_Ranger
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/...ng_Heat_Ranger
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/W_BA_Turret
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/..._Spear_Chucker

Is that enough?

Quote:

i'm done, i just had to point this out for the lulz

Why would you want to bring a skill just to disable 2 other skills? Wouldn't something to help your pet's DPS be better? Like Otyugh's Cry, Call of Protection? Predatory Bond is nice self-heal too.

mcjohna12 - Learn to quote, it's really hard to discuss if you see a wall of text.

phan · Jan 06, 2009, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcjohna12

1-It costs 25 mana, plus it takes up an Elite, yeah it sucks.2-Not even close3-If you don't waste mana you waste skill slots.4-Yes I'm spiking with a pet, don't believe in it, scrim me Ill destroy you in a second.

1- I hurd expertise wus gud
2-try and calculate ; you will see
3-i wasnt laughing about that ; i was laughing about you using "mana"and unless your an oldscool d2 player ; this is quite pathetic
4-Your saying you and your pet can spike me down in 1 second ?
I'll be happy to try this out and post the video here on guru ifyouwant x)

mcjohna12 · Jan 06, 2009, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Unless you are terribad, I think this is sarcasm.

If you want to deal damage, deal it AoE. Single-target damage is ftl in PvE except for Discordway, because it deals 100 damage every 2 seconds per character.

14.7 damage per second is ~7-8 pips of degen. Burning Arrow ranger with Apply Poison outdamages this.

Every secret build sucks. If it was good, it wouldn't be secret, as hundreds of people would be looking it up on PvX to rip it off.

People claiming to have "secret, but really good and original build" always have some kind of crap they put in random order and it works on test dummies.

Your pet has no res. It dies, you are useless until you zone again.
You have no res. If someone dies, you can't res him in 4-5 seconds. Or at all.

Scavenger Strike is bad. No interrupts, too. Companionship is 2 second cast, 10 second recharge. You either heal your pet, but sometimes by the time you finish cast he dies, or you heal yourself... But if your pet has more health, it might be too late for you.

I know few builds that allow more survivability, more damage and/or more team utility than your build.

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/...d_Arrow_Ranger
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/W_Stance_Tank
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/any_Barrage_Ranger
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/...ng_Heat_Ranger
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/W_BA_Turret
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/..._Spear_Chucker

Is that enough?

Why would you want to bring a skill just to disable 2 other skills? Wouldn't something to help your pet's DPS be better? Like Otyugh's Cry, Call of Protection? Predatory Bond is nice self-heal too.

mcjohna12 - Learn to quote, it's really hard to discuss if you see a wall of text.

Wtf are you talking about?
Were dealing with BM builds not some Pure Ranger or Ele builds....

In the build I posted I stated you can change two of the skill to whatever fits your needs....

Abedeus-Learn to read, otherwise you look like an idiot arguing about something far off the topic.